Generations in Session

From Transactional To Transformative: Rethinking Strong Leadership

• Path Positive • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Strong leadership isn’t louder—it’s clearer, kinder, and more consistent. We unpack how the old pyramid of transactional management is giving way to collaborative, purpose-driven teams, and why humility is now a competitive advantage. From early models we absorb at home and school to the noisy cues we get from social media, we trace how our beliefs about power and strength are formed—and how to reshape them with intention.

We get practical about listening as a leadership skill. You’ll hear a simple, repeatable approach for handling employee overwhelm: validate emotions first, separate facts from feelings, map blockers, and tag what’s in the employee’s control versus the team’s or leader’s. We talk through the feedback sandwich done right, the difference between coaching and controlling, and how accountability and power reinforce each other. Expect clear examples you can use in your next 1:1, including the two-ears-one-mouth rule and a follow-up cadence that builds trust without lowering the bar.

Culture mirrors leaders. If we model yelling and blame, the team learns to hide. If we model curiosity and respectful dissent, the team surfaces risks sooner and executes smarter. We explore bias in day-to-day decisions, why creativity needs psychological safety, and when to choose steady operational tweaks over flashy “big bombs” that create collateral damage. We also dig into hiring and firing with care, owning mistakes as a leader, and navigating the line between being part of the team and setting the direction.

If this resonates, subscribe, share it with a leader who needs it, and leave a quick review—then tell us: what’s one leadership habit you’re changing this week?

The conversations in this podcast are for informational and educational purposes only. While we explore clinical topics, nothing shared here should be taken as medical or therapeutic advice or used as a substitute for professional mental health care. Everyone’s journey is unique—if you’re struggling, we encourage you to reach out to a qualified therapist or healthcare provider.

If you’d like more personalized support or qualified therapy, you can connect with us at Path Positive.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to Generations in Session, Episode 9.

SPEAKER_00:

A Path Positive Podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm your host, Elizabeth.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm your host, Kaylin. And today we're going to be discussing leadership.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep, we're going to be looking at how leadership has changed over the generations and how we move from an authentic type of leadership. So leading with empathy and care and consistency and direction. So redefining how we call strong leadership.

SPEAKER_00:

So episode nine. Yeah, strong leadership. Definitely, I think a topic that right now is quite beneficial. Just being able to go back over current leaders and looking at the way the environment and the working environment has changed. You know, I know a lot of different companies attribute a lot of their changes to post-COVID and the shifts that have happened with remote and present work.

SPEAKER_01:

A lot of shifts have changed since the Industrial Revolution. So it used to be we would go to work and work was very pyramid shape. So you'd have a boss who'd have direct reports and reports down to them. And it was more transactional. Do this, and you get a paycheck. And there's still need for that in some certain types of roles and jobs. But leadership now and the structure, organizational structure, is really flipping to more of a collaborative structure. So leadership is more about inspiring and directing and stepping back and allowing your staff to step into their strength as opposed to being some more transformative than transactional. Now, not to say that both types or all types of leadership are not important. There are different types of leadership which are more effective for different types of role. I think before we dive into leadership, maybe we could step back. Kaelin, do you think that family dynamics has anything to do with how we develop as leaders?

SPEAKER_00:

I would say so. I do think that different environments raise different people. And while each person is going to have some individuality, I do feel that the environment that they're raised in can have a large impact. Now, I'm not saying it's gonna impact everyone the same way. I know lots of siblings who are very different from one another.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But I would say there's a very large impact of who it is that's raising you and what the environment is like that you grow up in that's going to alter the things that you're going to perceive and be readily available to target in your leadership style.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember way back when I was in school, way back, um, I had a professor who was very much of the mind that who you are from a personality perspective was written in stone by the time you hate hit teenage years. So he attributed a whole bunch of qualities and characteristics, like archetypes, to how children are raised and developed. And although I do think parenting pays a pivotal role in how children are who they are and who they become, as adults, and you and I drive a lot of accountability, it becomes our responsibility to look at qualities or beliefs that don't service us any longer. So if you're used to behaving a specific way because your mom did, did it or your dad did it, and you realize it's not functional for what you want next, it becomes our responsibility to identify it, to look at the belief system, and to start building towards a new belief system.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, personality isn't something we know isn't completely written in stone. It's something that we can change. And when I look at sort of personality or even uh how we define ourselves, I think it's something that we can definitely change. Yeah. And one of the ways that I would put it is, you know, we're not the person who we were exclusively. We're not just our past, we're also every small step that we take towards our future. You know, every little piece is what makes us who we are, and every action is what defines us as people.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. You know, in psychotherapy and therapy and adjustment is not about removal of a quality or characteristic. Honestly, it's like a dimmer switch. So you have a quality that you really like, so we turn the lights up on it, and you have a quality that you don't really like, and you turn the lights down on it. And this is about being really reflective and looking in. And honestly, in different organizations, there are leadership styles which will resonate with you as a person, and there are there is good fit organizationally, and then there is bad fit organizationally. So that is also something that we'll talk about at a different time, but important to bring up here. So I agree. I think that we are born into families, we are born with a spectrum of possibilities of how we can develop. Our parents help to hammer out the broad strokes, and then it is our job to define what's important and who we want to be in our life. So the first time we see leadership, I think, comes from our parents.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Who do you who else do you think is another important person in your journey through leadership specifically?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think I mean, in our journey towards getting to leadership, I know there's a really large impact of friends on the people that we surround ourselves with. So in younger childhood, usually it's it can be very formative who we spend our time with and the friends that we choose to make and lose along the way. Yeah. Um but at the same time, even as we grow and go through university and upper education or even just high school, those people can also play a large impact, you know, understanding the differences between you and them and the dynamics that help you to see maybe a different perspective or to lead in a new way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, so we mentioned a couple of podcasts back, but worth repeating how you can tell whether or not you're doing something you're proud of is that you go through the action and you don't feel a need to justify it. So as soon as you do something and you feel like, oh, I only did that because this person did this, your body is already telling you that you are doing something that is misaligned with what it is you believe. So do you want to say anything about that or I don't have anything on top of mind. Okay, okay. I just didn't want to switch gears and uh not have given you the opportunity to chat. So leadership starts at at home, we try it out, we develop it through our friends, we develop it, we see teachers, and we also probably mimic leaders in the world around us when we first start in a company or corporation. In today's society, I think social media may play a role in what we think strong is. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00:

I think I agree. I mean, I think there are definitely pieces of strength that are misinterpreted, or pieces of things that are not strength that are misinterpreted as strength. I think there's some difficulties with communication.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. I do think in today's world we confuse volume with strength. The hardest thing I think anyone will ever do is to step up and stand in something that we believe to be true and be kind to people who are not kind to you. So we've talked about boundaries, we've talked about really good communication, but a really good leader will listen. I think you have to have a really good ability to listen and to be open to the input of the people around you and not lead from such a perspective where it is my way or the highway. Why do you think that that or do you agree with that statement?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think we confuse leading with I don't know, I don't know even what to call it, but I think we have a a misunderstanding of what it is to be a leader.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so why don't we start there? What's your definition?

SPEAKER_00:

If I were to define a leader, I think their most important role is to be able to select a group of people around them who are going to help to inform their decisions. As a leader, it's not your job necessarily to hold the world on your shoulders. It's your job to build an environment where people can grow. And yes, you're going to lead the overall direction and you're going to get from point A to point B, but it's the role to invite people under you who are going to bring their own perspective and technique and use it to help grow the company alongside you.

SPEAKER_01:

It's interesting perspective because I feel like most leaders would say they inherit their team. So when possible, definitely, I agree. Looking at who's below you, who can help balance it out. Regardless if they're inherited or developed, it's important to be able to listen. And getting to know your team is about recognizing what their strengths and weaknesses are. You know, at the end of the day, if you think about a captain on a ship, he definitely should get input from his first mate and his executive team. But at the end of the day, he is the one who makes the decision. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I would say they do make the decision at the end of the day, but there is a lot of feedback that comes in. My my main point is I feel like there are leaders who attempt to lead, you're right, from the perspective of it's my way or the highway. You know, as a leader, it's my role to make these decisions, determine how we get across the path and go from point A to point B.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, I understand, you know, you're right, some people do inherit their teams, but I think it's our job to go in and listen to those teams and see what they have to say. I feel like we're so quick to go into a new place. And before we listen, we're already making changes and demands, and we're trying to obviously I understand going in and trying to show and show yourself as a good leader and find a way to grow the company and make these changes, which can be an expectation, but it's important to take a step back and listen and then come back with the information that you do collect and move forward.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, it is, I think one of the for me, the key ingredients for a phenomenal leader. Do you have a guess what I would say?

SPEAKER_00:

Is it understanding your role in communication?

SPEAKER_01:

Close. Close, actually. It is uh humility. So it is knowing enough to know that you don't know everything and being comfortable enough to admit that to the people around you. So authenticity authenticity from a leadership perspective is being open and honest with what your expectations are, what your limitations are, what you expect from the people around you. You know, Kaylin, when you and I talked about communication a couple of podcasts back, I said there are 500 ways to get to Florida. I mean, I don't know if there's 500 ways. There's a lot of ways to get to Florida, and there are some ways that are more direct. If we are talking about authentic and trans, um, not transactional, trans, okay, let me try that again. If we are talking about authentic leadership, leading with empowerment, leading with purpose, if that's the type of leadership we're talking about, our job as a leader is to set the goal posts and to let the team find the play.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I like your point about humility as well, because I do feel that being able to show as a leader that you're okay with being vulnerable and saying, I do not know the answer to this, but it's something that we're going to look into as a team and find the solution. I think it makes room for the employees to be able to feel comfortable in expressing their own unknowingness in a situation.

SPEAKER_01:

That's right. Ask more questions. So we should ask, if you think about ears and a mouth, we have two ears and one mouth, and we should use it in those proportions. So listen twice as much as you speak. I think humility is something that is developed. And, you know, I think often young leaders, in their attempt to boister their own sense of self or to get past a little bit of, you know, I really don't fit here, I'm not sure this is right for me, they peacock clinical term, right? So they just puff up and peacock and they tell people everything, which actually does the exact opposite of what it is you're looking for. Our job as a leader is not to solve people's problems, it's to teach them how to solve them theirselves, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I agree. You know, it's hard to lead, effectively lead an entire organization when we don't feel that we can trust the people who we're working with. You know, it takes a certain level of being able to let go of the small things while still maintaining the directory, the direction of everything, but letting go of those small pieces that don't make as much of an impact. Because if we try to hold on to everything at the top, it's going to be very hard to grow into anything significant.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, we get a bottleneck impact. So if you have to touch every piece because you don't trust your team, then it becomes a question of why is that? So is that something that you as a leader are are placing on them? Um, or is that something that you're noticing from their lack of ability and lack of accountability? But sitting down, having really good conversations about what we can do together and how we're developing and growing is all part of the process. It is important to be open and honest. And you know, when I talk about teaching people how to solve their own problems, traditionally you're gonna have someone who's gonna come up and will say, I've had this a whole bunch in private practice, where it's like this person did this to me on purpose. I can't believe my boss doesn't notice this kind of thing. Or I have an employee who's lazy. And you and I have had a good conversation how about people who procrastinate are not lazy, they just don't feel safe. So safety is a key piece of productivity, and feeling like you can express yourself is important. Now, as a leader, when people get really animated and upset and we become emotional, the bigger the emotion, the harsher the words. That's the tendency, right? We get madder, we yell more, and as a leader, our job, this is very hard, is to figure out a way to to keep yourself calm, to listen, not argue with what the person is telling you. I feel very overwhelmed. Well, you shouldn't. That's not helpful. I feel very irritated with Matt. He doesn't do any work. Matt's gonna love that when he listens to this. I'm just kidding, Matt, it's totally not true. Um, I feel very irritated with, you know, like my job role. I'm completely burnt out. I have too much on my plate, there's so much information and no way for me to deal with it. So when you've got an employee who's emotionally charged or aware that walks into your space, how would you deal with it as an authentic, empathetic leader?

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's in that moment, you're right, it's just time to listen. I think this is a conversation that you'll have to return to in a moment when neither of you are emotionally charged. Because in these moments of heat, their ears are not turned on. There's no listening and there's no feedback. But what we can do is we can take what they're telling us, we can write it down, we can acknowledge their concerns, and it's something that we can revisit. I think it's gonna depend on the situation from time to time on how we handle it.

SPEAKER_01:

So why don't we try and grab one of the situations that I gave you and let's drill down a bit so we can give people some tools.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Which situation would you like to use?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm open to any of the three. You pick one.

SPEAKER_00:

I do not remember a single one that you said.

SPEAKER_01:

So since we've done overwhelmed, why don't we why don't we look at the overwhelmed piece? You have an employee who comes in who is completely overwhelmed, and you're sitting down to talk to them because you're you as a leader are not happy with their productivity. So hey Kaylin, I brought you in today because I'm a little upset with what's happening here. Um, I probably wouldn't say it that way.

SPEAKER_00:

Probably not.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? We're not hitting targets, we're just not our hey Kaylin, are you okay? So is that a topic we can drill down a little bit on?

SPEAKER_00:

I think so. So, you know, starting with a check-in, I agree. Probably not uh time to mention an upset, but maybe, you know, like something about metrics, or there are things going on, or maybe you seem off. There's something different. Is anything going on? And you're right, maybe this employee becomes heated.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so Kaelin, you have an employee who comes in who you've brought in because you want to sit down and talk to them about performance. So we pull up metrics and we do the hey, first of all. So whenever you're giving advice uh and leadership, you sandwich. So you start with something they're doing really well. Uh, just wanted to thank you for all the hard work you're doing. I noticed that we're missing a couple of key accounts and some information that we need to deal with. And I was wondering what you think we can do to help support you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's important to ask them their feedback and their opinion. Because it's important to start off not, I think, by accusing anything, because that can definitely cause people to shut down and it turns into an argument or frustration or a difficult area to communicate. So opening it up, you know, in the way that you mentioned, I think is an appropriate and beneficial way to start.

SPEAKER_01:

So let's say my best intention was to start that way, and my employee starts getting really upset and starts blaming people that they work with about their inability to get their job done.

SPEAKER_00:

Alright. Um I'd probably start by once we've defined the metrics, going in and getting what they feel the concerns are. I understand that they're blaming other people, but by going back in and addressing the actual concerns, so taking a step back from, oh, I can't get that done because this person's not getting this done, and this person's not getting this done, and I'm not getting any support from my team, and going down and going into the actual piece itself and saying, okay, this is what's happening. What are the challenges that we can take away that will make it possible for you to get this done? So trying to figure out from their perspective what's the solution here. Yeah. Because if you're coming in and you're saying, hey, none no one else is doing their job, and so I can't get my job done.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so accountability and power go hand in hand. Our job as a leader is to remind people of the power they have, not to empower them, but to remind people of the power they have. Technique that I've definitely given to leaders to use with staff and that our staff in that kind of situation is to grab a piece of paper and free-float. Write down everything you're telling me right now on a piece of paper. And then we're gonna go back through and we're going to do what is your responsibility to move, what is somebody else's responsibility to move. And we'll work through that together. And then once we've identified what your responsibility is to move, I'm gonna let you think about what it is you can try differently moving forward with my support. The goal is to hear the person acknowledge that their emotions are valid and 100% okay, and move them to the next step of achievement.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I think sometimes there are going to be meetings where that next step might not happen in the same meeting.

SPEAKER_01:

Probably 90% of the time, to be honest. And we jump into problem-solving mode as leaders. So I want to solve this for you, I want to direct it for you. But going back to an analogy from the Bible, you can teach a man to fish or you can give him a fish. As a leader, our job is to teach them how to fish.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and it's it's at this point, it's time to listen to the venting that is going on. It's it's not time to problem solve because at this point, problem solving isn't going to solve any problems.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you you doing the solving for the person won't solve. So we eliminate the pressure by having them put it down on paper, and we give them the opportunity to figure out what they can do. What can you do? So I hear what it is you're saying, I acknowledge all of these blocks. What one piece here can you do? And it's okay you don't know today. I'm gonna give you a couple of hours, I'm gonna give you 24 hours to think about it, and tomorrow I'm gonna put on the books. You and I have a 10 or 15 minute conversation to deal with this. So the key part about this is the person feels heard and valid, feels safe with sharing what it is that they wanted to share. And provided the leader does their job and follows up, they're going to feel like they are a valued member of the team. So you'll recall we've talked about intent and impact. And when people become overwhelmed and burnt out, they always write the story that someone's doing this to them. And it's important to unlock that narrative. It's not possible to do in the moment because people are going to fight you on it. So when we're talking and having a conversation, and I am saying, This is what I think, right? This is how I feel. We use the word think a lot, and really we're feeling. This is how I feel about this situation. In my brain, if I'm thinking about all the ways you're wrong, what am I not doing?

SPEAKER_00:

Thinking about the actual problem.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm not listening, right? Because I'm stuck in my head thinking about what my rebuttal is going to be. We have a tendency to get stuck on one or two words. And the most important piece to remember is that when you're talking to somebody about their emotions, their emotions, okay, you ready for this? Are not about you. They're not about you. You don't have to understand what they're thinking, you don't have to understand what they're feeling, you don't have to agree with it even. It's important to acknowledge, help them look at it, right? Maybe differently if you can, or give them the space and the opportunity to come up with a solution of something that can be moved. Yeah. You know, leadership is really hard in today's uh world because we have leaders out there are people who seem like they're getting further ahead by doing things that seem very ungenuine, not authentic, more um bullying, more you will do it my way, more just not something that's in line with with how I think I would lead.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And I I think it's more looking at even the leadership research. I know you spent a lot of time in that area and recognizing what it is to be an effective leader. You know, it's it's important that we make considerations for how to be a good leader. Because we're we're so quick to find an external reason why something's going wrong. We're always looking for, oh, you know, none of my employees are doing anything, no one is getting anything done within a specific timeline and the work's not getting completed. And before we go in and we look at other people, we need to also look at ourselves and see is there something that I'm missing here? You know, when I look back at it, oh, did I actually give them the timeline that I'm accusing them of not meeting, or is this something where there's a communication issue? Is there a breakdown here?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know, taking the time to be accountable as a leader is is important and acknowledging what it is you can move is equally important, and how you can support the truth is is you want a diverse team. People who've got difference of opinions and different ways of doing things are going to give you more options to hit more targeted areas. And as long as we can respectfully blend those things, the better off we are, right? It's just it makes sense from a business perspective to be open to that. Being open and acknowledging that things are different, again, from a feeling perspective, doesn't mean you have to agree with how everybody feels, but we do have to be respectful in how we listen. You know, social media, I think sometimes is pretty quick to shut people down, to um to assist like we talked about hero and villains in life, and it is based on one small piece of a human being. Even the best leaders in the world make mistakes, and it is the humility and the humbleness that comes with it. Actually, the best leaders acknowledge that they make mistakes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think as a leader, one of the most powerful things you can do is recognize when you have made a mistake and own up to that mistake. You know, if something does happen and there's an incident and there's a problem or whatever is going on, being able to come into the team and go, you know, guys, this is something that I mistook. I have made this mistake myself. Well, that's the word. Thank you. You're welcome.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

But you know, this is something that I have mistaken and I recognize that this has caused this impact. I need your help in solving this thing that has popped up now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So, you know, being being providing a safe enough space to make mistakes is going to be important because mistakes is where creativity happens. So if we do a system that is flawless from start to finish, there is no opportunity to learn and no way to do it differently. And we are in a very dynamic world right now where change is instant. You know, a little while ago, Killen, you were mentioning the fact that good leadership looks to themselves when processes and policies aren't being followed. And you and I have had some experience working with smaller companies just trying to move, like shift one thing in order to get the leadership to acknowledge and move. And really, there are moments from a consultant point of view where you're like, man, I cannot get this little crumb of change moving because we don't have people, maybe, who are fully bought in. And once the people are bought in or acknowledge or recognize that there is something that needs to change, we are more open to that. Change. Do you think that that's accurate or not?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think it makes me think of an analogy you brought up earlier today.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, if you go out and you buy a treadmill and you use it as a coat hanger in your basement, nothing's gonna change.

SPEAKER_01:

But if you but you're definitely not going to lose weight, but your clothes could be could be dry.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, you're right. There's also a new piece of decor in your basement that you get to enjoy. Yeah. Now, here's the thing for us, and when anything's going on in therapy or in any sort of industrial organizational style piece of research, it doesn't matter if you have this amazing tool that heals and deals with a lot of different things if we don't use it, and if we don't use it in the right ways. So being able to take the tools, try them, and give them the time to breathe, you know, looking at something, trying it once and deciding, oh, this is never gonna work for me again. Like, you know, I went to bed early, I got eight and a half hours of sleep, and I'm still tired. So I'm just gonna go back to my regular sleep schedule and get more done.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

When in reality, it's gonna take potentially a couple weeks to get caught up and for everything to start falling back into place.

SPEAKER_01:

To notice, to notice a sustainable change. We talk a lot about being curious and finding out what supports and and how it makes you better. And you always have to be curious about how you're feeling and what you're doing. Going back to a tool perspective, nothing is that strategic that it makes that big of an impact unless it's a bomb, right? So if you want to take a bomb and throw it in the middle of your business, you'll you'll only need to do that once, and then there will definitely be a big impact. But when we're talking about good leadership, when we're talking about structural change, it is about fine stroking.

SPEAKER_00:

And I'm not saying that there aren't fine stroking.

SPEAKER_01:

Let me take that back.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a lot of building, you know, after a bomb goes on, which requires fine stroking of materials.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, maybe not. So when we're talking about organizational change, the slow and steady is important as a pace because when you move one piece, something else will inadvertently change that you don't notice. So it's important that we go slow and steady and we stay accountable and we're looking forward. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't some times in a leadership situation where you are going to need a very divisive, very big bomb to move things through. But traditionally, that that isn't the way to get it done.

SPEAKER_00:

And here's the thing bombs work, they do, but there's a lot that has to be rebuilt after. Yeah, there's a lot of collateral damage, of damage control. You're gonna damage areas that you didn't intend to, and things are going to slide. So before we move to the last resort of some major structural change, trying to adjust and tweak, you know, going with the treaty first, come in with something, a deal, and try and figure out how do we get from where we are into another place. Because if we start off by dealing with this problem by clearing out an entire team and then scrambling to get something back together and to piece back the company that's been torn apart, it's a lot more challenging than trying to make the tweaks from the beginning.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you know, it's equally as destructive to do nothing when you have people who don't work well from a cultural perspective. From a leadership, how you treat the individuals who work for you teach other people to treat them a certain way. So we all have bias, and there are certain perceptions we have in our own brain, which is part of the human race. It just is. It's part of the cycle of socialization. I know that it is a big bad word out there, but it is also humbling in truth. So taking the time to pay attention as a leader, how I'm talking to people, and whether or not I'm more open to listen to certain people in certain roles and working hard to even that out so that it's more honest, more open.

SPEAKER_00:

And being cognizant of the times when we hear something and we think to ourselves, I'm not gonna do that, or you've got no idea what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Taking a step back and really asking yourself, why am I so defensive over this topic? Let me reconsider it at a different time and really take a look. Because sometimes we can dismiss those ideas automatically that really could lead to potential super positive change, but we immediately dismiss it out of emotion, whoever it's coming from. It's important to when we immediately dismiss something, step back and go, geez, I I immediately dismiss that. What is going on here? Is this something you know? I'm now recognizing that I dismiss this regularly. What are the changes I'm going to have to do here?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so you know, we we spend up way more time in emotion than we think. And leaders often, I think, lead by impulse and feeling, or definitely feeling more more feeling than structure. But if we have a leader who's very loud and yells and bullies, how do you think that impacts the culture?

SPEAKER_00:

I think it shows people that that's the way I should be treating others. That's right. You know, that's this is what's modeled, this is what the expectation of the company is. You know, if we're always going out full swing and going at people in this way, then we're going to teach other people that this is the way we handle problems here.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. Which you know, I don't um I don't ever see the value in something like that. That's a personal belief and a personal thought that it is not helpful for all the adults in the room to be on the ground having an adult temper tantrum. We do that, honestly, by using unkind words and aiming them at people, are talking over people, are bullying them, are not allowing a difference of opinion to be discussed in a respectful, kind way. You know, interestingly enough, you can tell an organization is very healthy when you have employees who feel comfortable enough to have a descending opinion.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, descending, but also respectful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yeah. So if everybody that you're talking to agrees with you, I would say you're probably not leading in an authentic way.

SPEAKER_00:

Um yeah, I think you're very likely right.

SPEAKER_01:

So take some time and pay attention to the small cues you're doing. Pay attention to how you're asking questions, pay attention to what you're saying in your brain. Going back to your point, Kaylin, which I think is really on point, is it always a person? Why am I so emotional about this thought process? Why is this feeling so bright?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because as we've said many times, uh feelings are a signal of something going on inside. So it's not someone else causing this, it's something that we have to take and look at and figure out what's going on here.

SPEAKER_01:

So a good leader is humble and aware of their own actions and respectful and kind. Yeah. I think they have to have the hard conversations, I think they need to redirect people. I think that they definitely need to be able to set an agenda to inspire people to follow and allow people to find their own way.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I think that is honestly probably a good recap of uh some of the main points of this episode. You know, it's uh not always about doing some big monumental change of your style. It's tweaking the little things and making the decision to actively go in and know I want to be a good leader, so I'm going to look out for these things purposefully. I'm gonna spend my time, I'm going to identify them, and I'm going to work on changing and shifting in a direction that allows me to be more receptive to the things that I'm not.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And when you're coming into a new situation, I know change agents are often sent in to change organizations. That's something different than a leader who's brought in to lead and to acknowledge that there are mistakes. If you're walking into a company and you're letting people go within the first couple of weeks, I don't really think you're doing your job from listening unless it is like so obvious. But even in that kind of situation, taking the time to figure out what this linchpin or person is responsible for and what it impacts is important.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. No, of course that's not saying if there was something that happened that they did have to be fired. This is more related to the people that are let go, maybe because they're not a good fit, or maybe because we don't feel like they're getting their jobs accomplished well.

SPEAKER_01:

So a leader leads by example.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I think a leader also recognizes that to be able to lead a team, you must also be a part of that team.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And that's a tough dichotomy to get right. So how can you be friendly and friends with and still lead?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so that is episode nine of the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. So we are going to be looking at having a couple of people come in and spend some time on the podcast. We're looking for some input from you as we're finding our format and what's working for us and hopefully you as listeners.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're welcome to send us a text using the link below. And we also encourage you to subscribe and reach out in any way that you would like. You know, you're welcome to go on our website and ask us any questions, or as I said before, uh send us that text message as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

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Elizabeth Hepworth

Host
Head Shot

Kaelen Hepworth

Host