Generations in Session

Inside Burnout: Signals, Prevention, and Real Workplace Strategies

• Path Positive • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Burnout rarely roars in; it whispers, normalizes, and slowly pushes your limits until you don’t feel like yourself. We dig into what burnout really is—prolonged stress that compounds—and why high performers often get hit hardest. From the unhelpful stories we tell ourselves (“If I don’t do it, no one will”) to how workplaces reward overextension, we trace the subtle pattern that turns drive into depletion.

We get practical fast. You’ll learn a simple triage approach—breathing, bleeding, broken—to sort priorities under pressure, along with “bookending” your day to set clear, realistic targets. When your brain stalls, we show you how to move before you move tasks: short walks, five-senses grounding, and targeted brain dumps that release mental pressure instead of creating more. We also talk biology as your “emotional parachute”—sleep, food, water, and movement—and how those basics protect judgment, focus, and mood when the heat is on.

We then shift to the conversations that change outcomes. Instead of accusing, bring a clear workload map and ask for trade-offs, deadline shifts, or support. For managers, we lay out a cadence of short check-ins, curiosity-led questions, and a focus on destination over micromanaging the journey. The goal is to protect your stars before they crash and to create safety for honest updates on capacity. We close by reframing boundaries as actions you will take when lines are crossed and by naming misalignment as a neutral truth, not a failure. If support isn’t coming, you still hold choices—and that’s where your power lives.

If this resonated, follow the show, share it with a teammate, and leave a review so more people can find these tools. Got a burnout tactic that truly works? Tell us—we’ll feature listener strategies in a future episode.

The conversations in this podcast are for informational and educational purposes only. While we explore clinical topics, nothing shared here should be taken as medical or therapeutic advice or used as a substitute for professional mental health care. Everyone’s journey is unique—if you’re struggling, we encourage you to reach out to a qualified therapist or healthcare provider.

If you’d like more personalized support or qualified therapy, you can connect with us at Path Positive.

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to episode five of Generations in Session.

SPEAKER_02:

A Path Positive podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Today we're going to be talking about burnout.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is a pretty hot topic and has been for a little bit of time in North America, anyways.

SPEAKER_01:

There's actually a lot of research that's been coming out in that area. Studying burnout, not just at work, but exploring into school and at home environments, even within parenting, has become a recent focus of study.

SPEAKER_02:

That's pretty interesting. Do we want to how do we want to organize this podcast? Do you want to talk about the research? Do we want to dive into the burnout when it comes to work? The traditional definition of it?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, maybe we will start by defining and then we can jump into a little bit of the research and everything that's going on.

SPEAKER_02:

Sounds good. Would you like to define it, Kalen?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Uh burnout is a sustained period of stress. So it's over long term, and over that term, its effects start to compound until we reach a point where personal achievement and workplace-related stress reaches a height where we're no longer feeling like ourselves, and we're becoming significantly less effective.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So, you know, uh emotional exhaustion is what happens. All the air goes out of the tire, the empty tank of gas. We become you know, it's like a that kind of feeling, uh, which is hard to quantify. And part of the difficulty with burnout is it's something that happens slowly over time. So it erodes at the person. And there are some pretty standard fundamental beliefs in stories that people tell themselves before they hit burnout. Would you like to uh give me your two cents on what some of those might be?

SPEAKER_01:

Um sure. You know, one of the things that does pop up, at least in the research, is this idea of social isolation and ineffectiveness. So one of the things that starts to happen as we start to approach burnout is we start to believe that we are moving into this territory where we are alone in what's going on. You know, whether that's our stress, whether that's our capability, but it's a distinct isolation from the environment around you and from the people who you usually would work with.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the people maybe that you once relied on. So a common theme that I have with clients and have seen consistently over the years is a fundamental belief that if they don't do the work, no one else will do it. And with that belief comes resentment and a lack of faith and not trusting. And it goes back to all of the different podcasts where we talk about how people write stories in their brain. So when we become tired, we're not at our best, which is what we talk about with biology of emotions. And the stories we write put people in the worst possible roles. The thing about burnout is in order to burn out, you need to be invested in what's happening to you. So if we think about it from an organizational perspective, the reason so much money has been spent on it to try and figure out how to avoid it is that it's traditionally your top performers who get taken out. So they run at it, they work at something harder, they continue to push. And then, as is traditional in organizations, when someone is excelling and exceeding what it is you want, we encourage that behavior. And there isn't really a button on a person that goes from green good to yellow to bright red. I mean, that would be super easy if we could see that. Then we could all figure it out. But it does really talk key to owning your own emotions and learning how to respectfully talk through that, plus an interaction of what your management sees.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know, it's interesting when we talk about burnout and burnout in the workplace, especially. It was interesting that I found most of the articles took a perspective of this is how the business is being hurt by this situation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was very much a focus on even when defining this is what's happening to the company, and these are some of the key characteristics, like absenteeism, um, a lack of work performance, and disconnecting were sort of the main focus for the burnout research. So it was less on, you know, what's going on with our people, and more on here's what's happening. People are under stress and then they're disconnecting. And they were focused on this workplace output side of the behavior.

SPEAKER_02:

I I think you have to do that kind of thing in a corporation because companies are in the business of making money, and it's the people who are the product. And if your product is not producing, then you're in trouble. So I think it's a pretty linear thing. And it is a return on investment, right? It's the ROI piece of stepping in and doing the psychological piece of helping to support and figuring out how to create an environment where we support staff and support individuals and provide a space where we hear and acknowledge that someone is feeling overwhelmed and we manage them through it by sitting down and looking at what their tasks are and helping them to prioritize. How would you prioritize the task, Helen? How would you do it?

SPEAKER_01:

Usually I start by breaking it down into you know what I know has a deadline is kind of my first step. So what actually has to get done because there's someone either waiting on it, requiring it, or this is the most important. And I usually go from there. So based on the deadlines, and you know, from time to time, certain projects have a large scope, but a later deadline, so they can get pushed off. Um, but it also comes into play for me when looking at taking on certain new work. So, you know, it's important, I find, to be able to clarify and provide an expectation of here's what's on my plate right now. Um, this is something I can definitely help with, but that timeline is not realistic for my capability.

SPEAKER_02:

So, with working with leadership, one of the things that I really drill down on is triaging. So when you walk into an emergency situation, you have to triage in first aid. Breathing, bleeding, and then broken. And you treat in that order because if we help set somebody's broken bone and they're not breathing, then they're not going to live. Uh, organization-wise, when people are completely overwhelmed, I have them, that's the first task I give them. What's breathing, what's bleeding, what's broken. And part of the dance is that depending on where people are in the evolution of being overwhelmed, it is whether or not they can assess that themselves. This is where really good teamwork, really good management can come in, and we can start building that trust with the individual. It's like, okay, show me what you have to do, show me what your to-dos are, tell me what you think your first deliberable is, tell me who you have part of your team. So a management's role is not to answer the questions, it's to ask the right ones. Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And also key and part of the whole conversation, Kaelin and I always have, is not to judge whether or not you think someone ought to or not ought to be overwhelmed. If they're telling you they're overwhelmed, they are overwhelmed, and I'm not saying you don't need them to produce, I'm saying fighting about the feeling is not going to help them. So, how would you support someone who's feeling overwhelmed to leverage the fact that they still need to work and balance it with the fact that they are overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, one of the first things that I always start with, and I think is beneficial, is having them sit down and start by first taking a look at certain things. So, for one, one of the things that I find happens a lot of people when they're feeling burnout is they're sitting down, they're at their desk, they're trying to get things done, and nothing's happening. They're spending an hour, two hours, blank keys on the screen. And, you know, in that time, it feels really weird to think about as a strategy, but usually I recommend to try and get up and get some movement in. So if you can get up and you can spend 30 minutes walking, you know, sometimes we need to step away from work a little when we weren't going to be effective and use a strategy to bring ourselves back into the key area. So, you know, by stepping away, I find a lot of people fear stepping away from work. And I'm not saying to to hide it, you know, to be clear in what's going on and that you you need a quick break to recap and come back and look at things, but looking at it as a strategy for effectiveness and for being able to bring something better back to the table. Because at the end of the day, if you spend half an hour going for a walk and come back and complete the same amount of work in half an hour that you would have tried to do in two hours, you're still ahead of the game.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, which is a coping strategy. Something else really good, right? So you need to change the input. So something we always talk about with emotions is emotions are action, and you need to do something with it. So get up, move, and don't stick in the I don't know what I'm doing, I have no idea what's going on, because that's not going to help you. That's really going to activate your parasympathetic response to stress. And at this point, we want to ground you. You can use the five senses to ground you. You can remind yourself, right? As long as you're not in a surgery situation, no one's going to die. I'm going to be able to go through this. And although I feel this way, my feeling doesn't inform facts. So I'm allowed to feel overwhelmed and understand that I've been here before and know that I can do it and I can ask for help. So definitely using all the ands is important. And I encourage brain dumping. So sitting down and then just writing everything you think that needs to happen on paper. And what that will do is it will take it out of your brain, which is just um overwhelmed at the point, and give you a place to step back. So you can do it as a one-two punch. Write it down, put it on paper, get up, go out and walk, and then come back. Staring and looking at the same document is never going to help you to move forward. Never is too big of a word. Not often.

SPEAKER_01:

Very not often. Very not often.

SPEAKER_02:

Almost never.

SPEAKER_01:

And the one thing that I would add to those brain dumps that I find is sometimes an important caveat is letting it get the thoughts that are currently on your mind out. This is an exercise to release the valve. It's not an exercise to sit down and try to come up with absolutely everything that you have to do and trying to think through and making sure that you're not missing it. This is an opportunity to get what's currently stressing you off your mind. We're not trying to create any new stressors here about anything that's going on.

SPEAKER_02:

Really, really excellent point. Always think of emotion as water. I have no idea why. Uh just do. So if you think about a dam system and a levee system, so a dam is what holds the water, and that's how we frame our emotions with logic. And the levee system is everything we do to process it. So a levy system allows the pressure behind a dam to come down. When the levee system doesn't work, and the dam doesn't work, it's messy. Yeah. So it's important that we are in charge. You know, I for accountability piece, it's always really important for me for people to recognize the role they play in their own mental health. Mental health is a one person's game. It is your responsibility to pay attention to how you're feeling, to be accountable to where you're at, and to develop a plan to try and change something. Talking, asking for help, reaching out to people. And the more we can do it without anger, right? We preach kindness here. So it's about acknowledging what's happening and asking respectfully, or you know, if you honestly don't know where to begin, ask for help.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know, one of the things that is a big transition from, especially in jobs where you go to school first, is moving from a space where, you know, you might feel less inclined to ask questions and into a space where clarification is is really everything. You know, when you get into a workplace and whether it's a new thing or whether you're starting a new role, it's it's your job to ask questions to clarify and to get to the main point because we want to make sure that we're able to complete things effectively. And sometimes we need more information to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02:

And you know, so we're assuming here that we're working for good corporations who'll step in and help and good management, and there is bad leadership out there. I'm not saying there isn't. Um, although there is a lot of leaning towards feeling like you are a victim in your own life and your own story. So sometimes there are only bad choices. But let's deep dive into let's assume I'm a worker who's sat down and talked to my management. I've expressed that I feel like my workload is too much. I've inputted some, hey, so I'm gonna triage my work. I've got a formula in place where I organize at the beginning of the day um what I want. I review my goals from the night before. I move through and get started, and always more and more is being put on my plate. My manager either understands what I'm saying or doesn't and isn't really changing. Um, can you think of any other tools as an individual that I can use before?

SPEAKER_01:

Before like going to your manager or no, no.

SPEAKER_02:

I so yes, okay. So let's start with that. Let's start before going to your manager or before being faced with a couple of tough questions.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, uh, I mean, as we've preached, I think in every episode so far, sometimes starting with the basics can be really helpful. So one of the things about burnout is it happens because we are consistently and over a long time overwhelmed by stress. Now there are a couple factors that add into whether events are going to be perceived as more or less stressful. And one of those is meeting those basic biological needs of getting enough sleep, getting enough nutrition and water, and getting enough activity.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So I always talk to my clients about the emotional parachute, which is those three things. And you think about what a parachute does, right? When you're falling out of a plane, it doesn't stop you from falling, but it definitely helps with the descent. So traditionally, time and time again, when you sit down with somebody who's burnt out, they're not sleeping, they're not eating properly, they're not moving, they're they're, you know, perhaps using some coping strategies, which are not very helpful. Maybe a little bit of drinking, maybe, maybe not. Um, but there is, they are definitely not keeping their parachute on. So it's like, you know, you need to think about that. You're falling out of a plane, do not unstrap. You need that on nice and firm.

SPEAKER_01:

And, you know, when we have like similar to when we have lots of feelings going on that sort of pop up and things are going on, it's important to sort of let those things pass through. So with stress and with what's going on, sometimes there are certain ways to deal with it that can be effective. You know, as we were saying, starting off with a prioritizing uh broken bleeding.

SPEAKER_02:

Breathing, bleeding, and broken things. You're welcome. First aid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh one of those. And you know, just sometimes the the stepping back and making sure that you're checking in that you are taking care of yourself because we can often, when things start to get overwhelming or we start to fall behind, the first thing that goes is self-care.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's ironic because self-care is the thing that we can do to help keep in control of things.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. Self-care is not selfish, it's self-preservation. So it is fundamental. And I know everyone's been on a plane, and it's like put your mask on before you put your child's mask on. And really, as a parent, that goes against everything inside of my soul. But the reason that that's done is because if I'm passed out, there's no one who can attend to my kid. And the same is true when it comes to burnout. If you do not take care of yourself, everything that is reliant on that is on a rocky foundation. So burnout impacts every aspect of a human's life. It is clinical in scope. So the difference between everyday uh emotions and clinical emotions is not the symptoms, it's the intensity and the impact to your life, which is something we'll spend a bit more time on because we often say we have something diagnosable and it is not diagnosable. It's not clinical, it is um something that we'll talk about in a different podcast. But for this perspective, burnout is pervasive, so it impacts every part of our lives. And like I said, it's a slow burn, which is what makes it tough to find and to follow. So I know we're spending a lot of time talking about what the employee can do, but we are talking to you guys as individuals. And the goal with part of the podcast is to empower you and or remind you of your power. But the only way you have the power to move is when you are accountable to what's happening. So if I feel like I am a victim in my own story, I have no power to move what's happening. And sometimes the decisions you have in front of you are are terrible ones to choose from. But prioritizing yourself is going to be important.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, it's you are your biggest asset when it comes to work and when it comes to your life and everything that's going on. You know, when looking at your story, you are the main character. You are, you are the person who is in control, and at times it is going to feel like we don't have much control. Yeah. And most of the time, that's not exactly true. There are often things that we can do, and it doesn't mean we want to do them.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_01:

But we still have the opportunity to choose.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we don't we don't sell easy here. So there are definitely decisions around hard that you'll have to make. So stepping back, and let's say your boss is not supportive. You've tried I uh let me step back once again. You've tried bookending your day as well, which is what do I want to accomplish tomorrow? So, what is the absolute priority? What is the what is the breathing? What is the bleeding? What is the broken? You always start with what's most important. If you're getting overrun by emails, block out time on your um on your day where you're not checking emails. Put on the do not disturbs, use technology in the way it's meant. At the end of the day, set the goals for the next day. If you're waking up in the middle of the night with a to-do list, literally roll over, write it down. Or if you have an email that you have to get out, put it down on paper so that you can spend the rest of your night recharging and refocusing. So something we've learned to do as human beings is we accommodate, which is how come burnout happens, which means, well, you know what accommodation is.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you kill it in this context?

SPEAKER_02:

In in life. So how do our senses accommodate?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, we just kind of start to ignore it. That's right. So sort of similar to prioritizing, the brain has to choose what it's going to pay attention to.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is totally cool, right? But it everyone's walked into a room and noticed a very pungent smell. Like you walk in, you're like, whoa, and you're in the room for a couple minutes, and then the smell seems to go away. What's actually happening in your brain at that point, hon?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it just starts to ignore it. It's like the the feeling of your clothes on your body. Probably until I mentioned that, you probably didn't notice what it felt like. And once you mentioned it, all you could do is feel, oh my gosh, my clothes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So when we when we um accommodate in that kind of situation, we don't notice, we don't notice what's happening. So, in the same context of being overwhelmed, when you're constantly in a situation at work and you don't know how to deal with it, and you go home and you worry about it, and you sleep potentially and worry about it, and you get up the next day and worry about it, you've not given your brain the ability to see it as a new situation. And when we accommodate in that kind of scenario, it's like you're in neutral in your car and you're revving the engine. So it's not that you're not using the fuel, it's that you're not going in a direction. And we are at the point where we can't see it.

SPEAKER_01:

And, you know, when you do get into clinical burnout, it's something that takes a long time to recover from, takes a lot of time away and complete disconnecting from the environment, which means one of the key things about burnout is prevention.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Now, before we get into what happens if your manager disagrees, one of the things that we can also bring up that's sort of coming out in the research is the idea of peer and social connection. So getting out with people who maybe understand your struggle and even just people who you're friends with and sort of taking time and spending it. You know, when there's a lot going on at work, oftentimes similar to our emotional parachute, our social life sort of goes out the window. Yeah. Which is weird considering, you know, you have this time away from work that's away from work. And yet if you are busy at work, oftentimes it does come home with us.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, we are social creatures, so we are hardwired for relationships, and that connection is really important. So when you're going away with coworkers, sometimes we have a habit of only talking about the problems. So I encourage like a five-minute okay, we're gonna do a vent session and then we're gonna talk about other stuff because there is other stuff. So remember, it's okay to be frustrated and overwhelmed and irritated with people, and also joyful and happy and looking forward and wanting to connect and enjoying something that you're doing that's fun. I think those times when we're socially connecting, doing activity will help. So am I just gonna show here? But I'm gonna say bowling, although you did do that this weekend. So bowling or curling or hiking or walking, like if you can avoid going to a bar and drinking, um, that would probably be the top solution, or maybe balance it and do both. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I think maybe we could do a quick, just a quick part on, you know, how do we handle it when we're trying to make, you know, our manager understand our situation? You know, it is really when you look at it, there's not enough time in the day to get it completed. And whether it means, you know, they're expecting you to work constantly more hours than you're supposed to, or constantly put in more effort than you'd be capable of. What would your advice be for someone in that situation?

SPEAKER_02:

First of all, to step back and not assume that that's what they're saying and to ask clarifying questions and and figure out what your line looks like. So show them your mind map, which is what we were talking about, where you prioritize in the to-do list. And it's like, this is what I have on my plate. Am I accurate in it? And start from there and start the conversation. Your job is never, never to talk somebody into how you feel. So it isn't uh, I'm overwhelmed and you're giving me too much. It is a there's so much on my plate. This is what I see. This is I see is my role. I feel like I have to be missing something because it is not possible for me to do in this time frame and put periods, not commas. I say that a lot with my clients because I think we need, we want people to agree with us. It's okay that you're overwhelmed. It's okay that you feel that way. No one could get it done. No one we like to pull out eight out of ten people, ten out of ten people can't do this. And the truth is, is it is a hundred percent of you are is it's too much to carry. And that's okay. Ask for help, but start with clarifying questions.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I would also say, you know, similar to any conversation with someone that you care about or a relationship, whether that's just a romantic or familial relationship, one of the things that can be important is saying your point in a way that is getting what you intend to get across, across. So, you know, even when we were going through it there, the the idea of you know, you give me too much work. And it's important that we don't do that because when we start to talk in ways that attack, we start to in the other side of the conversation, we start to defend. And when we're defending, we're not listening. So when we're expressing our concerns, it's bringing it in in a safe way. So one of the things is we're not going and we're not going to. Our manager saying, Oh, I just feel like you're always giving me so much work, and there's no way that anyone could ever get this amount of work done. It's going in with the mentality of, here's what's on my plate. This is the time it's taking me. I feel like this is too much time.

SPEAKER_02:

Here's the tools. This is what I've done to try and prioritize. And you know, it's okay to get your manager to weigh in and say, listen, this has to, this you've put broken in a breathing problem. We need to switch those two. So, you know, confirming. And oftentimes when I work between leadership and and the direct reports, that's the thing. It's that they're talking about two different things. Are um, sometimes they're talking about the same thing, but doing it two different ways. A really good manager is not worried about the journey, they're worried about the destination. So handing over control to your employee to determine the path they're going to take to get the job done is really important, but not attacking because even though the person might not be verbally saying something to you, they are definitely fighting with you in their head. So we want people on our side. Walk in and assume you're part of the same team.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and bringing even in here's what I think a solution could be. Like, do you think we could push this deadline? Do you think we could add a little bit more time? Or, you know, is there any way that we could have someone help out with some of these responsibilities until these things go? Now, I I think it would be interesting if you know we spent a lot of time as the employee of a situation, because we do, for the most part, all report to someone else. Yep. You know, whether that's as a CEO reporting to the shareholders or as a manager reporting to another level of managers, you know, there's a lot of people who do report to someone, but there's also a lot of people who have people under them who are reporting to them. That's right. So the question becomes you know, if I'm a manager, what are the strategies that I can take not only for burnout in myself, but in my employees? How can I support an environment where people don't feel this pressure to burn themselves out?

SPEAKER_02:

So pressure is an internal thing, but from an employer perspective, it is to make sure that you guys are on the same page. So if you have an employee who has been performing at an exceptionally high rate and you notice they start to slip, it's that they're probably getting closer to being tired and overdone. Also, you know, you're gonna have to step into the people who are your superstars and sit down and make sure they're well supported. So you're really bringing a lot of value to the team. I'm really pleased with everything that's going on. Do you have enough support? Do you feel like you're working in the right timelines? Is there anything we can do from this side to go ahead and help? And I know that almost seems counter, right? Like, why mess with the people who are doing amazing? But we need to remember that we don't stay above the grade for a long period of time. And if we don't catch them before they start to fall, they'll be at the bottom. And it is about making sure that we're having the conversations and setting people up for success. Um, you know, sometimes in a sales environment, there's a lot of competition that goes around. And the clinician in me is all about and, right? It's about working together and finding a solution. And that's a tough thing to do when it impacts your bottom line, right? We want to keep pushing, we want to make sure that we're doing the best we can, but you cannot sustain something that is not sustainable. So making sure that you're talking to your staff. Like, is there anything you would say?

SPEAKER_01:

I I mean, I always feel like communication, as you're saying, is a strong stepping stone. You know, the first thing you can do is making sure that you're making yourself available for these conversations and also trying to have them, whether that's you know, checking in with the employees who are doing really well and checking in with the new employees or the older ones, and especially people who you find maybe don't come to you so much as a problem. Because it doesn't mean that things aren't going on. Yeah, it just means that they're not bringing them to you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Which, you know, it's not necessarily your role to sit and poke and prod until they say something, but it's your job to make a space where they could feel comfortable to do it, which involves, you know, from your end, yeah, like creating an environment where people, when they do come forward and say things, know that you're gonna have their back.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I mean, it's not about, hey, you shouldn't feel this way. It's like, okay, so how do we solution it? Um, and that's going to be really important. You know, with managers who are busy, they sometimes lose track of the people who are supporting them. So a suggestion to them is to put it into a calendar, a five, 10-minute conversation, uh, going out of their way to make sure that they talk to their team at least every couple of weeks for a specific period of time. And it isn't about work function. It is about, so tell me about what you've got on your plate, how you're balancing it, and what you see as potential downfalls coming up or uh potential wins, which way are we going? So asking key questions during the process is it is important. Heavy is the head who wears the crown, right? So leaders have got um traditionally a higher sense of emotional intelligence. And so really strong trade emotional intelligence is really strongly linked with really good leadership. So they're going to be more hardwired into acknowledging and recognizing other people's emotions and using that information in a way that's helpful to their whole team. And it's important, it's important that we do that kind of work.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh, you know, just as maybe one more aside that can also be helpful is setting a clear expectation. And this is related less so to the journey and more so to the final piece that they reach. You know, there's a lot of work that people can be flexible in how they get there, but understanding a very clear, these are the things that we're going to need. And if they come to you and they're looking for a different way to get to that same ending, we're able to sort of play it by ear and do it as a way to try and tweak things to better fit someone's skills. You know, it's so much better to help someone find a way, their own way of getting to the same conclusion than it is trying to force someone to follow your way less effectively.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because that that never works. And you end up doing their job and your job. So your job as a leader is to lead, as simple and hard as that is. And it's to ask the right questions. A leader should, should listen twice as much as they talk. Right. So if you think about the human body, we have two ears and one mouth, and we should use it in that proportion.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, we should.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah. So if all else fails and you don't know what to do, it's okay to admit that and and ask some questions. Your job as a leader is not to fix and find out what your role is. So your employee, are you venting or are you looking for input? If they're venting, let them vent. And if they're looking for input, then ask questions. Okay, I hear what it is you're saying. How what have you tried so far? What are you willing to solution? Uh, what has worked in the past? Why is it not working now? And they might get a little frustrated with you because people do not like to go through those steps, but it's important that they're doing that. So ask the question, give them time to think about it if they don't know. So, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna let you think about this for the next 24 hours, and your priority, we will meet tomorrow at this time. And then you put them in a time and you have them come back in. So that is, of course, assuming they're coming to you. We talked a little bit about making sure that you're going out to them and talking with them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think as far as burnout goes, there is obviously some nuance to it. You know, there's some shifts from person to person, and different things are going to lead to burnout in different people. But overall, I think we've set some pretty helpful tools that people are able to use in these scenarios.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and something else to keep in mind is not every person is suited for every job, and that's just a misalignment. So it isn't personal, it's just not professionally aligned. And that was something that I was alluding to earlier, which is sometimes we are just left with awful choices. And you know, instead of focused on what if you've had the conversation with your manager and you're not being supported, instead of focusing on what everyone else needs to do in order for you to feel better, you need to figure that out for yourself. So we're going to do an episode on boundaries and policing, because it's important that we do. We confuse that a lot in today's society, but in a nutshell, a boundary is something you decide you will do when somebody crosses over a line, not what somebody needs to do to make you feel better. Boundaries are really important when it comes to burnout because we spend so much time focused on what everyone else needs to do. We miss the fact that we can make a choice. So if you are in a misaligned situation, use your power to you've had the conversation, you've talked to people internally, you need to decide whether or not you can stay in that situation as it is, or if it is time to look for something else.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really nice solid point. And you know, I think that's probably something that will lead into the next episode as a little tease for what's upcoming. Yeah. Um, but I think it'd be a good time to look over and review sort of some of the strategies that we have brought up, and just a nice way to wrap up and and bring out an ending point of, you know, this is these are some of the ways that we can prevent burnout from happening.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Do you want to go?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure, I can start with one. Um I I think I still like the idea of the communication. And we sort of talked about it from both sides as a manager and as an employee, whether that means communicating your needs appropriately or responding and listening to the needs of an employee beneath you.

SPEAKER_02:

And not taking it personally. I always go back to that point, right? Someone's emotions and actions are a reflection of them, not you. And I'm not saying it's not being aimed at you. I'm saying it is not about you. And we don't get to determine how people should feel or shouldn't feel or do feel or don't feel. It is about acknowledging that the person in front of you is feeling a big feeling. You know, the bigger the feelings, the worse the words traditionally we use to describe them. So they might be pointed and directed. And, you know, you need to decide which fight you want to fight. Do I want them to script this perfectly to me, or can I acknowledge this is a bad spot? I'm not saying you won't come back and talk about it later. I'm saying you need to decide if it's worth fighting that fight right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, like when someone is heated, it is normally important to try and to just listen. And again, it's not personal, but it's not the time to solution when someone is going through this. Because as we've we've said, you know, when someone's got a lot going on, they're defensive. They're not going to be able to hear what it is that you are saying. And that doesn't make it okay that they're acting or they're doing these things, but it does mean sometimes we have to wait and find our time to come back and have a conversation where both of us are able to hear and participate in it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, traditionally in a professional setting, people are more professional. Um, that doesn't always hold water. And and you know, we will talk about this more in boundaries and policing on how to adapt and to answer to that. At no point am I saying you should take it. That's that's not the recommendation here. It's just understanding what will help and what will harm in the moment. And you will recall five minutes ago, it's like sometimes there are only bad choices. And in the moment, if your job is to listen, it's to listen. So listening, I'm gonna continue and move on here. Biology, I will use your example. Going back, make sure your emotional parachute is well in place. Another key thing is bookending your day with what you want to accomplish from a breathing, bleeding, and broken perspective, leaving it in the office by writing what needs to get done. And if you inadvertently take it home, taking the time to put it down on paper so that you don't have to keep focusing on it and you can focus on other things.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. One of the other things is making sure that we are getting social connection. Uh, when we're in this scenario, making sure that we're finding the time to still get out and be involved with other people in a social, non-work related environment.

SPEAKER_02:

So, as Kaylin alluded to, there are burnout and other aspects, right? There's burnout and parenting, probably partnering in dad school. So, this podcast is the first in a series. I would imagine we will definitely come back to burnout because there is so much to talk about. What is the top one or two takeaways from you, or do you feel like you've done that already?

SPEAKER_01:

I think for me, the the top takeaways were what I like what we've said already: the communication, the biology, the social connection.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. So don't write a script in your head. If you do not want to have the hard conversation with your boss, do not assume their intent. You only get to decide what the impact is. And remember, emotions are sticky when we're upset. Everyone does everything to us on purpose, which is not possible. We are not the center of the universe, even though we think we are.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, well, thank you, everyone. That was, you know, likely first in more than once episode on boundaries. A burnout. Or burnout. Both, I guess, at some point.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. So thank you. We hope you enjoyed the podcast. I'm thinking maybe on the next time we do burnout, we'll have a special guest in to have a conversation so that they can talk about um their experience and uh how they avoid it or yeah, something.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, sounds like a plan.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, a little something, something. So thank you for listening. This is a Path Positive podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

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Elizabeth Hepworth

Host
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Kaelen Hepworth

Host